Fun fact: you don't need sawdust for pykrete. Adding any kind of material e.g. just newspapers can help similar to how rebar makes concrete stronger
scheme271 5 hours ago [-]
Isn't adding newspapers just adding cellulose with some bonus ink?
Turskarama 4 hours ago [-]
It adds fiber, which is the key. The main weakness of ice as a crystal is that as soon as a crack forms it can spread along imperfections in the crystal structure. Putting fibre in it bridges those gaps and stops the cracks before they can get big enough to cause significant weakening.
grumbelbart2 9 minutes ago [-]
But those fibers disturb the crystal lattice of the ice, so surely there is some tradeoff?
gcanyon 8 hours ago [-]
Came to the comments for the pykrete reference, thanks for this.
Gravityloss 23 hours ago [-]
A local magazine did a test on ice cream cone melting. Some of those were still intact looking after sitting open at room temperature for an hour. Hooray for additives! So it's not a fundamentally new idea. These have to be safe to eat so maybe not too harmful for environment, though you never know.
Some parts of the world use ice roads and have struggled with warm winters. Maybe this could be used to improve the strength and extend time in the spring.
gus_massa 22 hours ago [-]
Which additive were they using? This article [1] use poliphenols, that are very different from the modified celulose in the top article.
Thanks for the link. I took a look at the wikipedia pages of the gums and they are closer to the modified celulose in the main article than to the polyphenols in the article I linked.
It's very complicated to compare, because they use other sugars and there are a thousand of details that are important, like how long are branchy the molecules are, and also a million of details that are above my chemistry knodledge level.
As a persomal prefference, I'd call that jelly instead of ice cream. (And in a bad day that I want to lie a little just to be mean, I'd call them a piece of cake.)
askvictor 6 hours ago [-]
One night I ended up with a scoop of ice cream I had to discard (I think I dropped it on the floor?) so left it in the sink. The next morning, it was still there. This was quite a decent ice cream, both in terms of flavour and texture; it was some of the gums holding it together. That became my new ice-cream of choice for making an affogatto without the icecream completely melting.
trencedamp 4 hours ago [-]
Ice nine. Hooray
silverFork 4 days ago [-]
Ok stronger but doesn't it melt.. What are they going to do with it?
patall 23 hours ago [-]
Ice roads would be one application. Once it freezes, usual ferry services can often no longer be upheld. Then, one has to wait until the ice is thick enough to drive a car over the ice. If there was an easily applicable material to drive on ice less than usual 15-20cm of ice, that would decrease that waiting time quite a bit (and make ice roads/bridges possible in locations that would previously be unsuitable). And since it is ice, you can grow it somewhere else and transport in place with a barge.
Another is underground tunnel building. In sandy places, there are cases where they freeze the ground when building a concrete structure. If that could be reinforced with stronger ice, it might make working easier.
Similar, you can use ice as an temporary scaffold when e.g building a spanning bridge in winter. Stronger ice => easier application of said scaffold.
gcanyon 8 hours ago [-]
It always sounds/looks like a trap to me when I hear about/see people driving whole-ass cars over 15cm ~= half a foot of ice. That's just wrong, and I would barely consider walking on ice that thick (thin).
(I'm telling you I'm from southern California without telling you I'm from southern California)
srik 3 hours ago [-]
I have similar prejudices until I was dragged to a Minnesotan winter activity where everyone drives into the middle of a frozen lake and park in a large circle while a bunch of drivers race their cars in circles in the middle. It was surreal.
xeonmc 17 hours ago [-]
Minecraft iceboat racing coming true?
hn_throwaway_99 21 hours ago [-]
This sounds like a Rube Goldberg machine if I've ever heard one, for the nichest of niche applications.
patall 21 hours ago [-]
I am pretty sure that 99.9% of material science covers very niche applications
mkotlikov 4 days ago [-]
"The intended application isn't for aircraft carriers this time, but rather for construction projects in remote, cold areas where conventional building methods aren't easy to apply – like the Arctic and Antarctic.
With no concrete or steel required, and with ice and plant-based cellulose as the main ingredients, this could be a building material with a low carbon footprint that's also biodegradable."
EA-3167 3 days ago [-]
Climate change feels like a grim reaper slowly stalking the value proposition of this technology.
zomiaen 23 hours ago [-]
Potentially becomes more viable in some locations.
Or a future ice age.
23 hours ago [-]
jazzyjackson 3 days ago [-]
Maybe we’ll be building ice caves on other planets after all
meetingthrower 3 hours ago [-]
Hoth
peder 23 hours ago [-]
Or maybe Mars?
moi2388 23 hours ago [-]
Exactly what I wanted. A biodegradable building. I’m making mine out of compost!
fwipsy 8 hours ago [-]
The original pykrete also melted less easily than pure ice, IIRC the sawdust acts as insulation or something.
raisedbyninjas 24 hours ago [-]
"Further down the line, this approach could open up a whole new landscape for materials used in packaging, construction, and more: Using a custom protein to bring two unlikely compounds (ice and cellulose) together."
Wonder if this will then be used to fulfill the dream of shooting ice bullets which then melt inside the victim, leaving less evidence. If memory serves, I think the CIA explored this at some remote point in time.
aqme28 22 hours ago [-]
Well no, because these aren't just ice-- it's an ice composite.
Lio 6 hours ago [-]
The CIA already had the SA-C46[1] for that “unexplained death” scenario. I believe ot was developed “but not used”… ;) ;)
The murder weapon is clearly the only gun around that can shoot ice bullets.
robby_w_g 8 hours ago [-]
Ah but then the murder weapon would melt!
zdragnar 21 hours ago [-]
Concrete's not strong enough to be used as a bullet either- you'd need something roughly the size of a shotgun slug. If you're going that big, you aren't going for subtle.
talon8635 20 hours ago [-]
Wouldn’t there still be evidence that some object penetrated the person and ripped them apart and caused them to bleed out?
Surely the CIA has untraceable ammo at their disposal already?
RobotToaster 4 hours ago [-]
I imagine the boring truth is that, at least in America, getting shot with a normal "boring" bullet is less traceable than something special or something that mysteriously disappears.
tomkarho 18 hours ago [-]
They already have the heart attack gun and half a dozen other gadgets. An ice bullet would be just (pardon the pun) an icing on the cake.
gus_massa 22 hours ago [-]
It's a mix of water and celulose, do it does not disapear completely.
anigbrowl 9 hours ago [-]
For fictional purposes, the ballistic information disappears. You might know the murder victim was shot with an ice bullet, but you won't be able to match it to a specific weapon.
Cerium 22 hours ago [-]
Add some enzymes to help reduce the remaining cellulose?
It's kind of fascinating how all the bullshit TV copaganda scenes involving forensics have both been A) rightly decried as unrealistic by savvy viewers, and B) still been fairly realistic depictions of the field of forensics.
jambalaya8 22 hours ago [-]
I believe they used a different frozen compound than water, but yes.
metadat 21 hours ago [-]
Mythbusters busted ice bullets. IIRC, the ice didn’t tolerate being shot out of a barrel and disintegrated.
john_strinlai 21 hours ago [-]
sounds like a problem that might be solvable by a new super ice that is 10x stronger and "can absorb much more energy and deform gradually" instead of disintegrating.
jonhohle 21 hours ago [-]
Coroners are confused about strange cellulose fibers through the entry and exit wounds. “It looks like they were attacked by… celery.”
Gravityloss 21 hours ago [-]
what if you obtained your target's DNA and grew their flesh to make bullets out of? Add additive, freeze and voila!
john_strinlai 21 hours ago [-]
i think there's an episode of Bones along those lines. maybe it was just a frozen blood bullet? i forget.
soperj 7 hours ago [-]
I feel like the obvious answer here for use is at the skating rink.
JKCalhoun 10 minutes ago [-]
You need the surface of the ice rink to melt though in order to "skate".
orbital-decay 7 hours ago [-]
It's not necessarily a bonus, different sports need completely different ice properties (e.g. figure skating vs hockey), and a managed arena needs ease of maintenance.
soperj 7 hours ago [-]
I spend an enormous amount of time at the rink (18 ice times in the last 9 days). Can you explain this? Because I don't see the difference between the ice for figure skating vs hockey, both of which happen daily at our local rink.
orbital-decay 6 hours ago [-]
Hockey needs colder/tougher ice, for figure skating it ideally needs to be a whole degree C warmer to get better blade penetration. Yes you can balance it and public rinks will keep it constant throughout a day, however for dedicated events it's adjusted (at least it is in our rink).
api 1 days ago [-]
This type of ice composite would be super interesting for space structure construction. Melt cometary ice and mix it with additives of some kind and spin big cylinders out of it. You’d just have to make the surface reflective so it doesn’t melt, and possibly have some active cooling which you need anyway if anything inside makes heat.
The outer surface would probably be sprayed with something, maybe just reflective dust, to also keep it from subliming into the vacuum.
Extremely repairable, melts at human and equipment friendly temperatures, recyclable, doubles as an emergency water reservoir, and last but definitely not least a fantastic radiation shield.
Would also work for structures on Mars, the Moon, etc, but I’m a fan of the idea of settling space itself not another planet. Gravity wells are a trap.
ozyschmozy 16 hours ago [-]
The BioPykrete name is kinda funny. As opposed to the regular pykrete, made with the famously not-bio wood pulp
bmurphy1976 22 hours ago [-]
Sounds like a good candidate for shielding an inter-galactic colony ship.
aeve890 21 hours ago [-]
Inter-galactic? My dude I think you missed a few steps
bmurphy1976 20 hours ago [-]
The farther you go, the faster you need to go to get enough time dilation to make the trip worthwhile. The faster you go, the more the shielding matters. It still applies!
stronglikedan 20 hours ago [-]
> The faster you go, the more the shielding matters.
Unless of course you just bend everything around your private bubble with your warp drive.
timonoko 19 hours ago [-]
Frozen fish is about the same strength as carbon fiber composite. You need carbide saw to cut it.
23 hours ago [-]
gaiagraphia 1 days ago [-]
The article briefly touches on future packaging. Would ice ever be useful in packaging frozen foods? It'd be biodegradable, and would be a sign of trust that the goods have been permanently frozen from packaging to delivery.
You'd literally be able to just throw the trash outside and let it feed your garden, lol.
dublinben 23 hours ago [-]
The integrity check could also make this especially valuable for transporting medication that must remain cold. The current state of the art isn't much more than putting ice packs in a styrofoam cooler.
IshKebab 24 hours ago [-]
I hate how researchers always have to pretend there's a practical application for their inventions. This is clearly never going to replace concrete in any situation. But it's still interesting.
23 hours ago [-]
moron4hire 4 hours ago [-]
I think all researchers should be forced to consider the practical applications of their work, if they are publicly funded. Don't want to answer those questions, go find your own money.
Another instance of 'Super Ice' or as named in the article 'Pykrete' in science fiction is in Neal Stephenson's Novel from 2015: Seveneves.
The substance is used in space for the construction of temporary habitats.
I suppose this is plausible if you manage to find a large source of ice and bring it into a stable orbit. It won't melt into liquid, and perhaps the reinforcing fibers could help prevent sublimation.
A lot of the novel strained my ability to suspend disbelief, but the overall scope and ambition is so awesome I was able to forgive the poor editing. It's attempting to be hard sci-fi, much of the novel is taken up by technical descriptions that could only appeal to an engineer-minded person.
NitpickLawyer 24 hours ago [-]
> A lot of the novel strained my ability to suspend disbelief, but the overall scope and ambition is so awesome
While the 2nd half of the book is definitely still sci-fi territory, the first part is slowly getting into the plausible tech realm, 12 years after the book was written. We now have a much stronger space industry, and probably could match or exceed the payload to orbit in 2 years from the book (if everyone would work towards the same goal, which is still a bit of fantasy but hey...)
randallsquared 23 hours ago [-]
> getting into the plausible tech realm
Except bringing an asteroid all the way down to the ISS. That part was uncharacteristically thoughtless, I think.
hermitShell 22 hours ago [-]
It basically enabled the plot and mostly happened 'off camera'. The parts about the management of radiation was pretty cool though. Because if it I earmarked "Ichi-F: A Worker's Graphic Memoir of the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant" to read later on.
macintux 23 hours ago [-]
Side note, but I have a hard time thinking of Seveneves in halves; isn't it 3 distinct parts?
Mainly I remember skimming the middle third because it felt like such a drag.
doginasuit 23 hours ago [-]
You could cleanly think about it in three parts, but the time jump in the middle which involves a whole new set of characters is another way to split it.
rtkwe 23 hours ago [-]
Yes the book itself is broken into 3 parts but if you're looking at it from a scientific plausibility scale parts 1 & 2 are in the same vicinity of that scale where part 3 jumps a good ways into more traditional scifi levels of plausibility.
NitpickLawyer 23 hours ago [-]
Heh, true. My brain went into "pre space" and "post space" as halves :)
moron4hire 4 hours ago [-]
I'm still salty over the Kickstarter he ran about a sword fighting video game that was, at the time, the highest valued project in Kickstarter history, and he just... gave up and released nothing.
8note 22 hours ago [-]
pykrete isnt a scifi material. its a ww2 idea the brits had for making an ice based aircraft carrier
The Wikipedia article mentions how this happened with an anti-AIDS medication called ritonavir. I watched this video by Veritasium on that situation a while back; I recommend it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksn5yrsC3Wg
thinkingtoilet 21 hours ago [-]
I literally picked up Cat's Cradle for first time in decades this weekend. Funny how these things line up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete
Fun fact: you don't need sawdust for pykrete. Adding any kind of material e.g. just newspapers can help similar to how rebar makes concrete stronger
Some parts of the world use ice roads and have struggled with warm winters. Maybe this could be used to improve the strength and extend time in the spring.
[1] https://thisismold.com/uncategorized/the-science-behind-the-...
Carob extract and guar gum at least.
It's very complicated to compare, because they use other sugars and there are a thousand of details that are important, like how long are branchy the molecules are, and also a million of details that are above my chemistry knodledge level.
As a persomal prefference, I'd call that jelly instead of ice cream. (And in a bad day that I want to lie a little just to be mean, I'd call them a piece of cake.)
Another is underground tunnel building. In sandy places, there are cases where they freeze the ground when building a concrete structure. If that could be reinforced with stronger ice, it might make working easier.
Similar, you can use ice as an temporary scaffold when e.g building a spanning bridge in winter. Stronger ice => easier application of said scaffold.
(I'm telling you I'm from southern California without telling you I'm from southern California)
With no concrete or steel required, and with ice and plant-based cellulose as the main ingredients, this could be a building material with a low carbon footprint that's also biodegradable."
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAC-46_(handgun)
Surely the CIA has untraceable ammo at their disposal already?
It's kind of fascinating how all the bullshit TV copaganda scenes involving forensics have both been A) rightly decried as unrealistic by savvy viewers, and B) still been fairly realistic depictions of the field of forensics.
The outer surface would probably be sprayed with something, maybe just reflective dust, to also keep it from subliming into the vacuum.
Extremely repairable, melts at human and equipment friendly temperatures, recyclable, doubles as an emergency water reservoir, and last but definitely not least a fantastic radiation shield.
Would also work for structures on Mars, the Moon, etc, but I’m a fan of the idea of settling space itself not another planet. Gravity wells are a trap.
Unless of course you just bend everything around your private bubble with your warp drive.
You'd literally be able to just throw the trash outside and let it feed your garden, lol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine
The substance is used in space for the construction of temporary habitats. I suppose this is plausible if you manage to find a large source of ice and bring it into a stable orbit. It won't melt into liquid, and perhaps the reinforcing fibers could help prevent sublimation.
A lot of the novel strained my ability to suspend disbelief, but the overall scope and ambition is so awesome I was able to forgive the poor editing. It's attempting to be hard sci-fi, much of the novel is taken up by technical descriptions that could only appeal to an engineer-minded person.
While the 2nd half of the book is definitely still sci-fi territory, the first part is slowly getting into the plausible tech realm, 12 years after the book was written. We now have a much stronger space industry, and probably could match or exceed the payload to orbit in 2 years from the book (if everyone would work towards the same goal, which is still a bit of fantasy but hey...)
Except bringing an asteroid all the way down to the ISS. That part was uncharacteristically thoughtless, I think.
Mainly I remember skimming the middle third because it felt like such a drag.
(I’m sorry.)